Curse

Alaris · Mar 08, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Concept:
Who hasn't wondered how it would be like to go questing along with titans and dragons in your party?

Idea:
To have henchmen that are lvl 24 (or 28), but that as a trade-off they occupy 2 (or 3) party slots, and take up 2 (or 3) shares of the gold and drops. The specific levels will be determined by balance issues.
These super-henchs are great beasts like lesser dragons, siege turtles, titans, etc. There may be a ressurecting and healing penalty as well, for balancing purposes.

Why:
-It would be fun
-It would reduce party size while still allow you to tackle higher-level areas. This has two benefits: (1) lower load on servers, and (2) more intimate combat experience.
-Allows greater diversity of party composition.

Heroes:
The same idea can be implemented on heroes, which level up to a higher level than you, and generally gain experience so that they are ahead of you. Again, they take more space in the party and eat up more shares of the gold and loot. Depending on popular demand, they may or may not be allowed in PvP areas (I would vote for it), but because they take up more party space, they would not necessarily give an advantage.

Mounts:
Finally, the same idea can be applied for human party members, they get to choose if they want to use a mount. The mount confers increased life, energy, bonuses to attributes, and possibly increased speed. Different mounts give different bonuses. Mounts are available as henchs, and you can combine henchs with mounts as well. As usual, a mount takes up a party slot (or two), and takes up the shares of gold and items (which are not given to the player using the mount, instead the mount 'earns' it). Some specific PvP areas may allow the use of mounts, which would first have to be unlocked.

tenshi_strife · Mar 08, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

*Cough wow Cough*

no no no no no no and no

really this seems outragous, this is not how GW is supposed to work, this ruins balance and alters pve style. this would make the game into mega hench slugfest in pve. no no no, this also ruins stratgy.

now i would love to have a pet dragon BUT it does not fit with the GW game style

/notsigned

Isileth · Mar 08, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

All terrible ideas. No offence to you but they just wouldnt work at all.

/notsigned

Tarun · Mar 08, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

I'd rather see the ability to take an all hero party.

Knightsaber Sith · Mar 08, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

/notsigned

Seems generally pointless to me. And the mounts, I'm not even going to bother....

MithranArkanere · Mar 08, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Wanna know a secret? Two lvl 20 are better than one lvl 28.

cyberjanet · Mar 09, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

This sounds like a different game to me. Nice idea, but different game.

Mitchel · Mar 09, 2007, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Even Zhed was a bit to big for me.
/notsigned.

Etta · Mar 09, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

These ideas would be good for a game call, Guild of Warcraft.

Age · Mar 09, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Rofl I don't think so.

gameshoes3003 · Mar 10, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

/notsigned
yeah, this is totally ridiculous. People will start henchwaying instead of actually making a party.

Viruzzz · Mar 10, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaris

-Allows greater diversity of party composition.

by limiting party size? what!?

honestly did you think this through or did you post it as flamebait? the idea is so horribly bad. I just don't see how anyone could come up with this and then think it would be a positive addition to the game.

legion_rat · Mar 10, 2007, 05:36 AM // 05:36

not even going to flame this thing. just going to

/unsigned

and

~the rat~

FelixCarter · Mar 10, 2007, 07:05 AM // 07:05

To the OP: It's an interesting idea, but as you can see, it would not go over well with the community. People don't want to have less Heroes/Henchies. They want more so they don't have to commune with others in-game. It's innovative and interesting like I said, but it's not something the community of Guild Wars will agree with.

To the people who've responded to this topic: No idea is "horrible" or "unworthy" to reach your divine ears. Your shit smells just like everyone else's shit. Get over it. Stop acting like someone submitting an idea like this is taboo and stop acting like you have the right to make them feel bad for thinking.

It's possible other ideas will spawn from this one that the community will find amiable and reasonable. Until then, please be polite to one another.

Tufty · Mar 10, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

/notsigned
To be perfectly honest Ive never wondered what it would be like to party with titans and the like.
However I do agree with felixcarter above. Sometimes there are suggestions that dont sit well but that gives noone the right to shout them down. Perhaps a little healthy jibe would suffice. I recently observed a 10 year old guild member being abused by some others 16+ like he was the same age. It is a large comunity with many different people lets just try and be a little more polite.
I'll sit here and await flaming myself now because obviously people should expect a hard time and if they dont like they dont have to read it. I guess some of you guys get bullied yourself

Alaris · Mar 19, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Constructive criticism people, otherwise it's a useless flame-fest.

Some individual replies:

Isileth - why?

tenshi_strife "ruins strategy" - it changes strategy, but does not ruin it unless it is poorly balanced. I think ANet knows how to balance a game.

Etta "These ideas would be good for a game call, Guild of Warcraft." - I much prefer GW to WoW. Having said that, the idea has not been implemented in WoW to my knowledge.

Tarun : "I'd rather see the ability to take an all hero party" - You could have both.

Knightsaber Sith: "Seems generally pointless to me. And the mounts, I'm not even going to bother.... " - the point is for those who would enjoy this, and mounts is for addressing the huge demand for them. As a side note: mounts will happen, because there is a huge demand for it, although the specific implementation may be in a different form. There are also Junundu worms and Rollerbeetles, those count as mounts as far as gameplay is concerned.

MithranArkanere - "Wanna know a secret? Two lvl 20 are better than one lvl 28." - Fine, so make it lvl 35. This is a balance issue, not a feasibility issue or an assessment of whether it would be fun. Like I said in my earlier post: "The specific levels will be determined by balance issues."

cyberjanet - "This sounds like a different game to me. Nice idea, but different game." - Yes, it introduces a different dynamic, but I would say it is the same game. Monsters already have that - we don't. You are right though that it will change the dynamics of gameplay, for those who choose to use them, that is.

Mitchel "Even Zhed was a bit to big for me." - You're afraid that you will get lost amidst those things. A valid concern. I personally loved Zhed, and I would love to have more of those things. The Paragon's wings and the Dervish's forms were nice touches too, and I can bet we'll see more additions like that too in the near future (for one, I bet one more form will be added).

Age "Rofl I don't think so." - No comment.

gameshoes3003 "People will start henchwaying instead of actually making a party." - Many people are already henchwaying instead of actually making parties. This idea will not change much to that dynamic, some people like the interaction with other players, others prefer the predictability and control of henchs. Personally, I have achieved Survivor(2) title, nearing Survivor(3), using only henchs, because they are much less variable and uncoordinated. I do like to venture out with players with my other characters.

Viruzzz "Allows greater diversity of party composition. by limiting party size? what!?" - It does not limit party size, because you take those in your party only if you choose to. It allows some variability in character levels. Also, I did enjoy smaller party sizes in Prophecies, as it game a more personal experience. Shame the henchs were too low-level to be useful.

legion_rat "not even going to flame this thing" - No comment.

FelixCarter
"To the OP: It's an interesting idea, but as you can see, it would not go over well with the community. People don't want to have less Heroes/Henchies. They want more so they don't have to commune with others in-game. It's innovative and interesting like I said, but it's not something the community of Guild Wars will agree with."
- A valid comment, and constructive criticism. However, how fun is it to be one amidst a 20-30 chars party? There is a point where more becomes too many. Even strategy games often find ways to limit your army size, because it's more fun that way.

Tufty "To be perfectly honest Ive never wondered what it would be like to party with titans and the like." - Like I said earlier, this feature is for those who want it, and it is optional. Thanks though for the thoughtful response.

gameshoes3003 · Mar 19, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaris

Constructive criticism people, otherwise it's a useless flame-fest.

Some individual replies:

Isileth - why?

tenshi_strife "ruins strategy" - it changes strategy, but does not ruin it unless it is poorly balanced. I think ANet knows how to balance a game.

Etta "These ideas would be good for a game call, Guild of Warcraft." - I much prefer GW to WoW. Having said that, the idea has not been implemented in WoW to my knowledge.

Tarun : "I'd rather see the ability to take an all hero party" - You could have both.

Knightsaber Sith: "Seems generally pointless to me. And the mounts, I'm not even going to bother.... " - the point is for those who would enjoy this, and mounts is for addressing the huge demand for them. As a side note: mounts will happen, because there is a huge demand for it, although the specific implementation may be in a different form. There are also Junundu worms and Rollerbeetles, those count as mounts as far as gameplay is concerned.

MithranArkanere - "Wanna know a secret? Two lvl 20 are better than one lvl 28." - Fine, so make it lvl 35. This is a balance issue, not a feasibility issue or an assessment of whether it would be fun. Like I said in my earlier post: "The specific levels will be determined by balance issues."

cyberjanet - "This sounds like a different game to me. Nice idea, but different game." - Yes, it introduces a different dynamic, but I would say it is the same game. Monsters already have that - we don't. You are right though that it will change the dynamics of gameplay, for those who choose to use them, that is.

Mitchel "Even Zhed was a bit to big for me." - You're afraid that you will get lost amidst those things. A valid concern. I personally loved Zhed, and I would love to have more of those things. The Paragon's wings and the Dervish's forms were nice touches too, and I can bet we'll see more additions like that too in the near future (for one, I bet one more form will be added).

Age "Rofl I don't think so." - No comment.

gameshoes3003 "People will start henchwaying instead of actually making a party." - Many people are already henchwaying instead of actually making parties. This idea will not change much to that dynamic, some people like the interaction with other players, others prefer the predictability and control of henchs. Personally, I have achieved Survivor(2) title, nearing Survivor(3), using only henchs, because they are much less variable and uncoordinated. I do like to venture out with players with my other characters.

Viruzzz "Allows greater diversity of party composition. by limiting party size? what!?" - It does not limit party size, because you take those in your party only if you choose to. It allows some variability in character levels. Also, I did enjoy smaller party sizes in Prophecies, as it game a more personal experience. Shame the henchs were too low-level to be useful.

legion_rat "not even going to flame this thing" - No comment.

FelixCarter
"To the OP: It's an interesting idea, but as you can see, it would not go over well with the community. People don't want to have less Heroes/Henchies. They want more so they don't have to commune with others in-game. It's innovative and interesting like I said, but it's not something the community of Guild Wars will agree with."
- A valid comment, and constructive criticism. However, how fun is it to be one amidst a 20-30 chars party? There is a point where more becomes too many. Even strategy games often find ways to limit your army size, because it's more fun that way.

Tufty "To be perfectly honest Ive never wondered what it would be like to party with titans and the like." - Like I said earlier, this feature is for those who want it, and it is optional. Thanks though for the thoughtful response.

Make the super-hero lvl 35....
Now then, name one boss that's over lvl 35...

Also, if you're trying to equalize ONE bot, to equal TWO bots. Then uuuh... I see no point, might as well bring two still.

And think... What would you want..... 2 human players, or one freakin superbot that deals over 150 base damage as you can witness through Glint and the Lich from Prophecies. I see less parties, and more solo runners. That's not what the game is about.

Introducing new dynamics to the game? No. Just buffing levels.

Henchman are also at the minimum level that you should be when you're somewhere. So don't say they're too low of a level.

Also, yes it still would lower the party size, and having just a bot on your team does not create a personal experience.

Also, party sizes will never go above 20... Don't know how you got such a number. The maximum size is 8, and don't start with me on Alliance Battles, it's just 3 groups of 4. So there'll be no armies. And the strategy is completely dependent on the player. Also, there is no strategy with bots because, uuuhh... they attack what you attack? Strategy is dealing with what you got (Such as people?). And having a superbot that completely dominates, isn't strategy. That's just you in running and out letting the bot take care of things.
Also, you cannot expect that bot to beat an enemy 1 or 2 levels higher than it, it just won't happen.

Then, the game is suppose to be hard because you cannot have anybody in a party that is over level twenty. Repeat, cannot have anybody in the party that's over level twenty.

Alaris · Mar 20, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

I'm not saying that you have to agree with me... I'm saying that this idea might be fun for some players, me included, if done properly.

My idea actually already exists in Guild Wars, and that I enjoyed it when it was there. I want more of it... Some examples:
1) The Cannon turtles on the Luxon side
2) The Juggernauts on the Kurzick side.
3) The forteress defenses in Nightfall

There are also a few issues that I think should be settled once and for all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameshoes3003

Make the super-hero lvl 35.... Now then, name one boss that's over lvl 35...

Also, you cannot expect that bot to beat an enemy 1 or 2 levels higher than it, it just won't happen.

The game is suppose to be hard because you cannot have anybody in a party that is over level twenty. Repeat, cannot have anybody in the party that's over level twenty.

The levels, as stated previously, will be balanced such that the super is about as strong as 2 bots (if it takes two places) or as strong as 3 bots (if it takes 3 places). Actual level numbers are therefore *irrelevant* to the present discussion.

You can make a game like GW harder in many ways, including: (1) pitting you against higher-level monsters, and (2) pitting you against larger mobs of similar or even lower-level. You could do the same on the player side, without making it harder or easier.

I wouldn't want that bot to kill ennemies higher-level than itself without my help. I have no idea where you got that from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameshoes3003

Also, if you're trying to equalize ONE bot, to equal TWO bots. Then uuuh... I see no point, might as well bring two still.

And think... What would you want..... 2 human players, or one freakin superbot that deals over 150 base damage as you can witness through Glint and the Lich from Prophecies. I see less parties, and more solo runners. That's not what the game is about.

Also, there is no strategy with bots because, uuuhh... they attack what you attack? Strategy is dealing with what you got (Such as people?). And having a superbot that completely dominates, isn't strategy. That's just you in running and out letting the bot take care of things.

What the game is about is not yours to decide. It's up to the community and ANet.

Do you play with bots? I don't think so. If you play only with humans, then you should not even have that discussion, because this will not affect you anyway.

Unlike what you said, playing *well* with bots requires that you call targets, position them (and re-position them to avoid AoE spells), and otherwise give them some intelligence to complement their AI.

Did I mention the super-bot would be balanced? Therefore, it would not dominate *by definition*?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameshoes3003

Introducing new dynamics to the game? No. Just buffing levels.

Strategy is dealing with what you got (Such as people?). And having a superbot that completely dominates, isn't strategy. That's just you in running and out letting the bot take care of things.

I agree that strategy is dealing with what you have. That may be people, or it may be bots, depending on your preference. Lots of people like playing with bots (henchs and heros), and my idea concerns them.

The strategy relies on the relative importance of group members. For example, if you lose your monks, then it's time to retreat... If you lose your minion mancer, then you got a whole mess on your hands. See?

The same can be said about higher-level members in your party. Lose one of them, and it's as if you lose two members in one shot. If it gets disabled (hexed or conditioned), it's as if two members got disabled. It might have stronger spells and attacks, but it can cast them less often than two members could.

So you have to be extra careful to make sure that super stays alive and contributing. Therefore, sending it into the fray without support is like sending a lone tank into an army. It might do some damage, but you'll lose it, and end up losing the fight. Poor strategy indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameshoes3003

Also, yes it still would lower the party size, and having just a bot on your team does not create a personal experience.

About personal experience: there is much to say about this. Personal experience for me means being involved, contributing significantly to the action, not being lost in the crowd. Having a personal purpose.

You can achieve that in PUG's, in teams of human players, in mixed groups, or in purely hench/hero groups. You can get that in PvP or PvE. It depends on your contribution.

If you're in a 4-character team, whether human or hench, then if you slack off and do nothing, your team runs at 75% efficiency. In a 8-character team, you'd run at 87.5% efficiency. Therefore, the larger the group, the less there is room for personal experience - as far as contribution to the team is concerned. Smaller team means mistakes can potentially cost you more. The cost of losing that super or having it disabled would be high, and you'd have to contribute to the fight to ensure that this does not happen.

Protecting the tank in Ghost Recon felt like a personal experience. It was stronger than me, obviously, but if it was lost, then the mission was over. Same protecting larger ships or bombers in Descent Freespace. Most strategy games have supers and ubers and normal units. However, the normal units are needed to protect the ubers and supers. They need to be involved.

Same thing here.

Plenty of strategy games have it. So why are you saying that there is no strategy in this?

Strange Guy · Mar 20, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Uhmm..I'm sorry!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaris

My idea actually already exists in Guild Wars, and that I enjoyed it when it was there. I want more of it... Some examples:
1) The Cannon turtles on the Luxon side
2) The Juggernauts on the Kurzick side.
3) The forteress defenses in Nightfall

WoW are those hench/heroes? Can you control them and tell them to go where you want? Do you understand the differences between Henches and Allies?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaris

The levels, as stated previously, will be balanced such that the super is about as strong as 2 bots (if it takes two places) or as strong as 3 bots (if it takes 3 places). Actual level numbers are therefore *irrelevant* to the present discussion.

Uhmm I'm sorry again but.....what's the point of taking up to 2-3 spots? When I PvE I only make the team of 6 in order to get more drop. The creation of this only bring bad but no good. This will:

1. Increase number of people doing solo run!
2. Desert out some minor farming places. (cause hench > people so you can solo in even smaller size.)
3. How can this be applied to PvP?
4. Will ruin the mechanic of the game. On Atribute, dmg based, Profession ect....!!!
5. Create even a greater number of players using BOT to farm.

If you can give me another 5 REASONABLE good side of making this then I will sign for you!

freekedoutfish · Mar 20, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

You could just add summoning abilities to professions like elemental, so they can summon a titan minion lvl1-20+. With a limited life span, and negative effects to using them (high energy and svery low spell regen) it doesnt make them anymore overpowered then using an MM.

...or add some kind of elite signet (can be used by all professions) which summons titans or other elite creatures for a limited time at great cost.